Where do you work, what’s your role?
Where do you work, what’s your role?I’m a barrister sole, working in Manukau, South Auckland
Where did you study?
I studied at Auckland University, completing a BA/ LLB. Initially, I didn’t really think about law school, I just wanted to do a BA because I wanted to be an art historian or a curator. I just loved the subject. But my parents, being Asian, were very disappointed that I wasn’t going to study science or maths or engineering, like my sister. So, they were resistant to the idea and said: “No, you can do a BA at law school. So, I did a conjoint. But then I ended up really liking law.
In the second year you do criminal law as one of your mandatory papers. When I was reading cases, it was like reading stories of people’s lives. And in every case the facts were different. Every case was unique. And that taught me that a criminal lawyer’s role is very important because it wasn’t like other fields of law, like commercial or contract where I always felt the law is so rigid and strict that there was not enough room for lawyers to intervene. I felt that as a lawyer working in criminal law, the more work you put in, the more difference you can make. And I was very attracted to that.
What’s been your career to date?
After university I was a junior barrister for Shane Tait for just over five years. I was fortunate to be employed by him when I had absolutely no experience. He is still a good mentor. In 2012, I left to become self-employed. The move to work as a barrister sole was a natural transition.
How long have you been involved with The Law Association committees and which committees have you worked with?
I’ve been involved with the committees for about two years now, as co-convenor of the Parole and Prisoner Rights Law committee and a member of the Criminal Law committee.
I got involved because at the time I was doing a lot of work with prisons. I had a client who was one of the prisoners mistreated in Auckland women’s prison. And there was a lot of public interest in that case. A lot of people found out about how horrible the prison treatment was and that’s when I really got interested in prisoners’ rights and how prison operated in general.
Why is committee work important?
From my prisoner mistreatment experience, I realised that as a lawyer your role is more than just representing your clients. I was doing interviews with journalists and all these things were being published. I think that issue brought a lot of people together and brought a greater awareness. During that time many lawyers came up to me and started talking about issues and problems and things that could be fixed. And I think if you’re doing committee work, you can be an advocate and really represent the people you have as clients rather than just running your practice. And to me, that’s very, very important.
Defence lawyers often represent people who are vulnerable and marginalised and often society doesn’t really care about them. I don’t think they care about prisoners’ rights. They often think they deserve to be there. But there are things happening in prison – such as human rights breaches – that being lawyer gave me an opportunity to care more.
How do The Law Association committees make a difference?
You’re involved with other people who are also passionate. And I think it motivates us to do more – to be a voice and advocate for people who are vulnerable, who are voiceless and doing that extra work.
How do you see the role of a committee convenor? What specific skills do you think a convenor needs?
You must be very diligent. You have to be able to listen – a very important quality – and share ideas.
What is your biggest frustration as a convenor?
When people don’t have an opinion. I would rather we have the discussion. Even if I don’t agree, I respect everyone’s view, that they’ve thought about an issue and want to do something about it.
What’s been the most notable achievement or biggest focus of your committee during the past few years? Why was that important?
One of our priorities (that we are still working on) is to increase the number of people who do parole work, so we can increase prisoner representation. We want to encourage this because not all criminal lawyers do parole work.
It’s important because the number of prisoners who are represented in New Zealand is dramatically low. For example, in the UK, the prisoner representation rate (I’ve been told) is about 90% and in New Zealand it’s less than 50%.
We think it’s important to have a lawyer present for parole and other disciplinary hearings in prison because it also affects treatment of prisoners and how prisons operate in general. Unless there’s someone challenging the prisons and saying, “that’s not the law, and you’re not following protocol”, prisoners would have no chance of challenging it themselves. It’s important that lawyers are there and protecting the client’s interests.
There are several reasons why there’s such low participation by lawyers:
- prisoners themselves sometimes don’t know they are entitled to a lawyer when they’re applying for parole because no one told them.
- prisoners don’t know that they can get legal aid to cover the cost, so they sometimes just don’t bother. And they just appear themselves. Lawyers can do so much to help them.
- the way that parole hearings are run is so different from court. Because it’s a closed court, it’s not available to other lawyers to observe and learn. So, lawyers interested in this area don’t know how to start.
We are having discussions with the Legal Aid Commissioner to see whether certain hearings can be covered and the fixed fee increased, but I don’t think that is the only problem preventing participation by lawyers in parole hearings. Training might be required and raising awareness amongst lawyers.
Over the past year, has your committee made submissions on a parliamentary bill or any consultation paper?
Yes. We made two submissions on the following topics:
- Public Safety and Serious Offenders: A review of preventive detention and post-sentence orders (July 2023); and
- Corrections Amendment Bill (August 2023)
What would you say to anyone thinking of becoming involved in a Law Association committee?
They should definitely do it.
What’s the biggest issue facing your practice area? And how does that affect lawyers and their clients?
Law changes. During the last government, we had a real problem with sudden law changes without any consultation. From a lawyer’s perspective – for any law change – there should always be the proper process of consulting all the bodies because we are able to tell them, “In practice, this is what’s going to happen. Although you’re intending to achieve ‘this’, it’s actually going to make things worse and we are making our submissions in order to protect our clients”.
The new government has promised (in its first 100 days) that it will get rid of funding for cultural reports. The effect it will have on the clients who are already marginalised is going to be huge and might lead to access-to-justice issues because only those who can afford it privately will be able to pay for that report now.
To me, it’s very short-sighted. When governments make significant changes like that, it is so dramatic. They see a problem and just want to fix it, without seeing the overall context. And without consultation, it really frustrates us because in practice it has huge consequences.
What’s the best-kept secret about The Law Association?
Collegiality. I think we’re a really tight bunch, especially the criminal committee.
What is the biggest issue facing the legal profession right now?
Attrition and work-life balance. I’ve been doing criminal law for more than 16 years. I have always found it stressful and hard, but really worthwhile. Today, I see so many lawyers who are leaving the profession or are completely exhausted and they just can’t cope. And I don’t know if I’ve ever seen that kind of effect before. It’s more dramatic. Is there anything we can do? But we’re also very busy. Mental wellbeing is a topic that we need to discuss more.
Have you done any media interviews/ provided any statements to the media in the past year as a committee convenor and spokesperson for ADLS/The Law Association?
No, other than the mistreatment case which was about four years ago. I wasn’t on any committees at that stage.
What is your vision for the legal profession in 2050?
I think a lot of people fear AI. There’s a fear that computers or artificial intelligence can do the job that we do, which I don’t hold. In criminal law and jury trials, lawyers will still be required because it’s human interaction. I hope criminal law and jury trials are going strong in 2050. I would be thrilled if I’m still standing in a courtroom running trials in 2050!
What do you think The Law Association could do to improve its offering to members?
I think The Law Association does remarkably well. And it has made so many changes to modernise. It already has a group full of new student members. It encourages young lawyers to join this organisation, which is a really good thing. As a new lawyer, I was so intimidated. I wouldn’t dare join an organisation. The Law Association already does really good work on that front.
On another note, I was excited to hear that The Law Association is also intending to do podcasts. In a recent trial I was involved in, I was surrounded by senior lawyers. I jokingly told them they should do a podcast on travel, food and cooking – eg, “lawyers who cook,” because they didn’t stop talking about it. It’s something that might interest other lawyers who can relate, and to know that lawyers do talk about things other than law!
To find out more about The Law Association’s committees, please contact Daniel.Conway@thelawassociation.nz or Moira.McFarland@thelawassociation.nz.
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